[BTS] just curious, if you could start game with any tech in tree (just one) which would you pick?

[sylvanllewelyn]

Constitution? Jails also allows early Great Spy for espionage. It can be good for Always War.

 

[sampsa]

On mathematics, yes +50% chops is nice, but bureau does the same and not only flop chop but to all ...

 

[MilesBeyond]

On mathematics, yes +50% chops is nice, but bureau does the same and not only flop chop but to all ...

Oh yeah, Bureau is unquestionably better. But there's something in my primitive monkey brain that just likes Big Chops.

Man, I keep coming back to this thread. I don't know why I find the question of "Which tech would be worst" to be so interesting, but I do.

Now I'm wondering if it might be Scientific Method. You're shutting yourself off from Great Library, Monasteries (guess you're stuck with Org Religion to spread your religion around), Parthenon (generally not worth building, sure, but can be a great perk if you conquer it), and Temple of Artemis (...okay, that one's actually doing you a favour).

In return, you get Forest Preserves (lol) and reveal Oil. And Sci Meth is already coming early enough that you've got ages to secure a source of Oil before you need one, so seeing it from turn 1 is of exceedingly limited strategic value.

So you're locked out of a bunch of stuff, and the only real benefits are being able to Lib Communism and getting the GOATed Industrial soundtrack all game long. Might even be worse than e.g. Stealth.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

* Physics - Free great scientist, an early blimp for scouting, and could be useful for cracking top units on conquest.

No, we don't get the free great scientist. Yes, airships are awesome.

It opens up electricity > radio > mass media.

 

[MilesBeyond]

Wait, I think I found an even better candidate for worst: Lasers.

Like many Modern techs, it gives you absolutely nothing on its own, but it also is enough to unlock Fibre Optics, which is a high priority GS tech, meaning starting with Lasers will prevent you from bulbing Philosophy and Paper, among others.

 

[valergrad]

Why nobody even mentioned Alphabet?

I mean, with this tech you have possibility to trade to AI immediately, that will give you a lot of other techs.
Basically you don't need to put on science slider more than 0 for the first 100 moves or something.
It seems it just overcome +50% in just one capital

 

[a pen-dragon]

I mean, with this tech you have possibility to trade to AI immediately, that will give you a lot of other techs. And will continue to give you for a long time.

If it would work that way, it would be a nice boost, however there are two main problems:

1) the number of techs you can trade with the AI is limited by WFYABTA, meaning trading the cheap starting techs will potentially block you from trading later, more important ones.

2) on higher difficulty levels the AI will typically research alphabet relatively quickly, and you can then trade for it. Typically the early game follows the pattern that you first get your worker techs and then either go for the techs you need to rush someone or you directly try to get something to trade alpha for, i.e. Aesthetics. Having alpha at the start would therefore not generate much benefit.

In other words: yes it will give you lots of techs, but these will typically not be the ones you need, and getting these techs actually prevents alpha from continuing to give better techs.

 

[valergrad]

If it would work that way, it would be a nice boost, however there are two main problems:

1) the number of techs you can trade with the AI is limited by WFYABTA, meaning trading the cheap starting techs will potentially block you from trading later, more important ones.

2) on higher difficulty levels the AI will typically research alphabet relatively quickly, and you can then trade for it. Typically the early game follows the pattern that you first get your worker techs and then either go for the techs you need to rush someone or you directly try to get something to trade alpha for, i.e. Aesthetics. Having alpha at the start would therefore not generate much benefit.

In other words: yes it will give you lots of techs, but these will typically not be the ones you need, and getting these techs actually prevents alpha from continuing to give better techs.

I agree that WFYABTA exists, but there are two things that make situation not so bad IMHO.

1. It has memory decay - every 20 turns in average AI 'forgetting' about trading you tech. This doesn't seem a solid amount of time later in the game, but at the beginning where everything is so slow - it is a huge time interval.
So, when more expensive techs will come - there is a probability that AI's will already forget about trading to you bronze working at turn 15.

2. IIRC For AI to remember trade for WFYABTA he need to meet you first. So, if you playing with 10 AI's, and you've met with 5 of them at the beginning - only these 5 will remember about this trades. So, civs that you'll meet at turn 10 will have no idea that you've traded Fishing, Agriculture, Mining, Wheel - all at turn 1.

Having all the worker techs from the beginning - could be really nice boost. But I honestly have no idea how easy AI's will trade techs like Bronze working or Sailing, because in most of the games you'll learn such techs by yourself.
If bronze working works like Iron working - you can get that early, but if it is like Calendar - that it's bad.

 

[pmarc]

2. IIRC For AI to remember trade for WFYABTA he need to meet you first. So, if you playing with 10 AI's, and you've met with 5 of them at the beginning - only these 5 will remember about this trades. So, civs that you'll meet at turn 10 will have no idea that you've traded Fishing, Agriculture, Mining, Wheel - all at turn 1.

I think that's right. Deity AI get a lot of free starting techs, as many as 5 of the 6 starter techs (if they are a Civ that starts with any 2 of Fishing / Mining / Myst) + Archery. The best play then is to just trade Alpha for as many starter techs as you can with the first AI (or 2) you meet.

So it may be better than the +50% commerce part of Bureaucracy, but for me, having +50% production as well would tip the scales in favor of Civil Service. Getting those units out faster in the early game seems very good.

 

[Nick723]

I

I think that's right. Deity AI get a lot of free starting techs, as many as 5 of the 6 starter techs (if they are a Civ that starts with any 2 of Fishing / Mining / Myst) + Archery. The best play then is to just trade Alpha for as many starter techs as you can with the first AI (or 2) you meet.

So it may be better than the +50% commerce part of Bureaucracy, but for me, having +50% production as well would tip the scales in favor of Civil Service. Getting those units out faster in the early game seems very good.

I don’t think you’ll be able to trade alpha until they have writing, so this wouldn’t work. Could probably get some value out of bronze working / animal husbandry however?

 

[valergrad]

I

I don’t think you’ll be able to trade alpha until they have writing, so this wouldn’t work. Could probably get some value out of bronze working / animal husbandry however?

I remember that I've traded Writing To/From AI several times. So, it is definitely possibly to trade before Writing.

 

[AcaMetis]

You can trade techs to AIs that don't have Writing so long as you have Alpha, but you cannot trade them the Alpha tech itself before they've gotten Writing, as that is a prerequisite tech. Which is a problem when you're trying to trade them Alpha, specifically, in order to trade for more valuable techs .

 

[Fippy]

You can just gift them writing, if needed.

 

[Nick723]

You can just gift them writing, if needed.

This would require teching writing first, in this example.